Iron Edge
Archive => Starcraft 2 => General discussion (public) => Topic started by: kagemoth on August 25, 2010, 04:14:53 pm
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First of all i need to clarify to you guys what cheese is, since a few of u are
using the term incorrectly and this mindset needs to be altered.
Cheese: Finishing off your opponent with t1 units. This is 6 pool , a proxy in your
opponents base (proxy is short for proximity) with either a pylon or barracks and getting out
reapers or marines with very little travel time or 6 pool
spinecrawler(This is normally very rare though).
I , and i know i'm not alone on this one , personally believe that cheese is as low
as u can go. It is a testament to ones skill to beat a player through skill and
strategey , which is what sc2 was made for , and to Cheese is the exact opposite.
It is the equivalent of saying "I can't play against you mid/late game SO if i can't
kill you within the first 7-8 min of the game i lose."
Now there is the argument that "one must addapt to the oppenent and counter" and
i am pretty sure noone will argue with that. However , the only way to counter cheese
is to switch to cheese and this is the part that makes me rage. The fact that i am
forced to rush out my spawning pool , zealot or whatever in order to counter the
sub-par intellectualy challenged fucktard who can't play against me if the match
were to pass the 8 min mark. That is to say if i even detect the incomming rush..
sumtimes i get suprised and then its just a rape fest.
Here is the an even more shit thing though. There is a stigma in the lower leagues
, though i'm sure it still occurs higher up , were "This is the stratagy everyone
uses". This statement was made true to me earlier on when i was playing 2s with Raph
and i detected the incoming cheese , got out a spinecrawler and a few lings but Raph
was a bit slower on that cause he went for a roachden. Loh and behold they own him
without any trouble and i say "Well , gotta love rushing" and then the one zerg
responds "Lol , this is what everone does." WTF... this is what everone does? Great.
Leaving out all the imbalances, like bioball or metal (or just anything terran lol)
if this game was MEANT to be played as a rush game, then gg , i eagerly awaited on
a game that turned into Wotlk in PvP.
To all of you who play this game as it should , i take my hat off to you sirs , and
to those of you who further enforce the cheese, well Gl hf , knowing that you probably
couldn't beat a 15 apm noob in bronse if the game lasts a bit longer than normal.
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KAGEUMAD
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5549/cheerup.jpg)
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haha my favourite cheese in wc3 is towerrushing, although its usually almost impossible against good players.
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haha my favourite cheese in wc3 is towerrushing, although its usually almost impossible against good players.
You actually have a favourite.
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Yeh i got proxy pyloned and barreks yesterday, BUT this gave me a valuable lesson in base scouting properly and the next times this has happened, iv not been cheesed.
One you deflect a cheese strike, your opponent is easily over run. So you win outright as your economy is greater.
The thing im struggling with atm is, Void rays... and vikings, so its about the 6 min mark, i cant get lings past there wall, so tech up and expand.
Before i know whats going on 6 void rays/vikings come rolling in to win the game at the 9 min mark.
As a zerg, how can you prevent this. I normaly have 2 queens at main, wich is fine to keep 1-3 away but any more, then its GG and panic to pump out hydra/mutas/spore crawlers. but Mutas are expensive and get eaten by vikings.
Any advice?
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I haven't tried SC2 yet, but my point is that good players dont lose to cheese, and trying a cheese strat usually makes you very vulnerable.
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So you claim that if you win with tier 1 units, its cheese? Or win within 8 minutes its cheese?
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i saw a vid once where a protoss got a mothership within 9 minutes im sure thats cheese to according to kage
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I remember almost losing the semifinal in a C&C tournament to an APC with engineers -.-
I made a nice come back! :D
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So you claim that if you win with tier 1 units, its cheese? Or win within 8 minutes its cheese?
i saw a vid once where a protoss got a mothership within 9 minutes im sure thats cheese to according to kage
Don't try to be smart if u don't have anything to really say. You might notice , if u
actually read the post which you obviously did not , that i give a detailed list of what
cheese is.
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LOL ENGINEER DROPS !!!! OLD SCHOOOOLLLL!!!!!
Fuck i remmeber that in Red Alert!!!!
KILL THE ENGINEER QUICK!!!! .. dam .. there goes my Obalisk
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I dont play Sc2 and i didnt check what forum this was in, thought this was going to be a delightful bree conversation, its almost a foreign language if you've never played SC though - reading this, quite funny.
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Yeh i got proxy pyloned and barreks yesterday, BUT this gave me a valuable lesson in base scouting properly and the next times this has happened, iv not been cheesed.
One you deflect a cheese strike, your opponent is easily over run. So you win outright as your economy is greater.
The thing im struggling with atm is, Void rays... and vikings, so its about the 6 min mark, i cant get lings past there wall, so tech up and expand.
Before i know whats going on 6 void rays/vikings come rolling in to win the game at the 9 min mark.
As a zerg, how can you prevent this. I normaly have 2 queens at main, wich is fine to keep 1-3 away but any more, then its GG and panic to pump out hydra/mutas/spore crawlers. but Mutas are expensive and get eaten by vikings.
Any advice?
Hydralisks
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So you claim that if you win with tier 1 units, its cheese? Or win within 8 minutes its cheese?
i saw a vid once where a protoss got a mothership within 9 minutes im sure thats cheese to according to kage
Don't try to be smart if u don't have anything to really say. You might notice , if u
actually read the post which you obviously did not , that i give a detailed list of what
cheese is.
No, you gave narrow minded list of few cheeses with only information about what brings them together is that they are tier 1 and you win within 8 minutes.
If you gave detailed list you would say stuff like "Cheese is fast build order which, if failed, would give opponent massive lead for the rest of the game". Grish has all rights to be smart ass!
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http://www.youtube.com/user/huskystarcraft?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/7/lgcfjTONnho
That's how you deal with cheese!
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Yeh i got proxy pyloned and barreks yesterday, BUT this gave me a valuable lesson in base scouting properly and the next times this has happened, iv not been cheesed.
One you deflect a cheese strike, your opponent is easily over run. So you win outright as your economy is greater.
The thing im struggling with atm is, Void rays... and vikings, so its about the 6 min mark, i cant get lings past there wall, so tech up and expand.
Before i know whats going on 6 void rays/vikings come rolling in to win the game at the 9 min mark.
As a zerg, how can you prevent this. I normaly have 2 queens at main, wich is fine to keep 1-3 away but any more, then its GG and panic to pump out hydra/mutas/spore crawlers. but Mutas are expensive and get eaten by vikings.
Any advice?
Hydralisks
Hydras are so imobile, once the attack comes by the time your hydras respond they have moved on,
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(http://aaronblomberg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/cheese.gif)
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thats more like it!
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if he invests heavily in void ray's you should honestly see that. Keep overlord howering at protoss base as long as possible, poke his front with zergling's. If you see something like 3/4 gateways, 3 gateways + robo, or anything in lines of this you can safely assume there wont be any void rays. If you see ONLY 1 gateway + cybernetic core get ready for double stargate void raid rush and make at least 3 queens + drop hydras den. When you survive his push (and there is no way to fail for it you prepared correctly) just leave 2-3 hydras in base and move with rest of your units and obliberate him. Dont remember when i failed last time to void raid push.
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OMG Narw what a link. That is a great anti-cheese! laughed so hard.
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Oh man that grinds my shit, asking for advice and then blowing it off. Hydralisks are ten time as costeffective and better against air than mutas are until you got 20 of them. So please, think a little before you reply.
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You could just sit your hydras were you'll be vulnerable to attack like say your mineral line? Or your expansion or something, until you need to move them elsewere?
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true true,
i do have a habit of leaving no units at my base.
i'll upload the replay, maybe you can throw me some hints.
Vorte- I am well aware hydras are more cost efficient then mutalisks .. i never said they where not.
i simply said they where very immobile. Which they are.
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(http://johan.kiviniemi.name/blag/ffuu/ffuu.png)
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Vorte how do i get that sig. I tried to make one but its not working out so well :D
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:)
loves!!
xxx
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true true,
i do have a habit of leaving no units at my base.
i'll upload the replay, maybe you can throw me some hints.
Vorte- I am well aware hydras are more cost efficient then mutalisks .. i never said they where not.
i simply said they where very immobile. Which they are.
I think your problem may be one of the following:
a: make more drones
b: spend your money
c: don't get supply capped
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Vorte how do i get that sig. I tried to make one but its not working out so well :D
I could make it for you but I can't seem to find your battlenet profile..
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hm. im kagemoFF :D
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true true,
i do have a habit of leaving no units at my base.
i'll upload the replay, maybe you can throw me some hints.
Vorte- I am well aware hydras are more cost efficient then mutalisks .. i never said they where not.
i simply said they where very immobile. Which they are.
I think your problem may be one of the following:
a: make more drones
b: spend your money
c: don't get supply capped
You don't have enough units. Pay attention Palmar, you could learn something: build more units.
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You don't have enough units. Pay attention Palmar, you could learn something: build more units.
While that is perfectly true, the best way for me to improve at starcraft is to make more units and workers...
I still make more units than you.
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U WANT TO FIGHT OR SUMTHING?? I WILL DESTROY YOU TROLL WITH USELESS TUSKS!
Does hugman even play?
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yeh palmer, supply block used to be a massive issue for me last week, its still a small problem but with practise its getting better.
And yeh drones its like .. my lava !! what to spend them on units or drones :S
its all practise i guess :)
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my lava
maybe you should get some larva instead
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I gotta agree with kage on many points here, but you can't stop cheese, because it's just there.
I've played many games with Narw in 2v2 and a gotta agree with what the zerg player says: Everyone does it (in 2v2). Many times narw and I have scouted the cheese, and IF narw would succeed in defending it (2x10pool is usually defended, but he loses all or almost all drones), They can still win by going for me in a next push of zerglings. Sometimes I'm just a retard for keeping my depot lowered to get units into narws base asap and then forget to close when they come for me, or they just simply break down my wall because the majority of my units is at narw (if not he loses his base to 2nd wave) and I have also invested in bunkers in narws base.
This type of cheese is almost impossible to defeat, unless you have alot of "gamers sense" or some sort of scouting on exactly when they're gonna come for a second push.
Also: 10pool is not the end of the game after just T1, before both of us can get a decent force up, they will have expansions and all they need for a late game (with even a significant advantage)
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Most of problems you described here is more about zerg being so vulnerable to early harras, they are working on it as you saw in patch notes, but they are doing it some akward way (not making zerg stronger early game, but protoss/terran weaker).
In 1v1 i just assume that at least 50% of players will try to "outplay" me in first 6-10 minutes of game and send early drone to scout (first or second drone i got, depending on map). If he dosnt go cheese i wont be so badly behind, if he goes for cheese it usually wins me match/saves a lot of nerves.
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IdrA style, calm defence and perfect calculation on how many units you need to defend!
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This game is amazing stop talking about cheese. :(
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I can't figure it out what's wrong with cheese. I remember when I used to play scbw on bnet and there were those games asking for 10 minutes tech time and stuff like that. I mean come on, if you can not scout on a small map then you deserve to get cheesed by someone who knows the map and tactic better than you.
Cheese is out of the box most of the time, out of the regular build for 10 mins and have a huge mid fight. Not to mention that zerg aint even cheese, it relies on his t1 units most of the game. If you face a 6 pool you will probably be smart enough to attack the lings with your drones and whatever zealot/marine/lings/queen you have and he is done. All you need to do is counter 1-2 mins after and you have won the game. If he goes for an 8-pool than you should have some lings of your own or some units at least. Though an 8-pool is just constant pressure till the speed is done.
Not to mention cheese is fun and entertaining especially when it fails and you are forced to keep playing out of the box, out of the regular in order to remain in the game and maybe win. How many times any of you countered a cheese and felt great about it?
And Kage, what you miss from your point is the fact that some people might like short active games, that force you to micro and macro better and continuous.
Cheese is there in order to force someone who wants to become a better player to scout, scout early and keep on scouting the whole game. If you know how to use rally points you get your worker to scout 80% of the danger areas in a second or two.
As a last note, I find it smart and challenging to build, expand or do out of the standard strats moves in order to tip the balance of the fight in your favour, no matter what the other guy says.
Protoss proxy can be easy countered early if you see the probe - get 3-4 probes, corner it and kill it. You can't? Just the the EXACT same build as him in your base, you will end up with more units faster, you can use the probes to help your zealots. You'r a terran? throw down a bunker then swap for early mara and gg, or maybe some reapers to make the zealots sweat. Your a zerg and you couldnt notice the probe coming using your over ... then you might deserve to get owned. If you do notice though an 8 pool can take care of any proxy push and end up in a very fast victory for you.
Reaper problems, meh just get a crawler or a queen, or a fast stalker, or a mara.
I will end my post with the phrase:
SCOUT! For the love of God! ::) :P
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I actualy even tried to reply to this, but then i realized you are trolling. Please, tell you are trolling.
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I don't get it, Draconis is speaking so much truth it hurts and you think he's trolling?
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Narw - I added you to friends in sc2 8)... lets have a game and try to cheese me ::)
That's a no - not trolling :P I thought that its a good crowd to be sincere and discuss this. :)
Thx Palmar for the support :D :-*
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smileys!
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smileys!
Lots of them! Ill morph them into smilings then to banelings and explode em around here! ;D
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Narw - I added you to friends in sc2 Cool... lets have a game and try to cheese me
Yeah, i will make a prox hatch.
I mean come on, if you can not scout on a small map then you deserve to get cheesed by someone who knows the map and tactic better than you.
So i heard that proxy gateway is overwhelming vs zerg on the internets, ima gonna try, ima skilled. No.
Not to mention cheese is fun and entertaining especially when it fails and you are forced to keep playing out of the box, out of the regular in order to remain in the game and maybe win.
What the hell is fun and entertaining in mindvision build you assume you do before the gates open? You are aware 90% of cheesers dosnt scout you? They just assume you go for standard build?
And Kage, what you miss from your point is the fact that some people might like short active games, that force you to micro and macro better and continuous.
What?
I don't get it, Draconis is speaking so much truth it hurts and you think he's trolling?
I'm obviously blind then couse i fail to see that "so much truth". What i see is trying to justify a way of playing this game that kinda ruins the fun. Ask yourself why you barely see any kind of cheese replay's on sc2 replay sites? Maybe couse its way more interesting to actually watch a game full of micro AND macro, which usually is a 15-35 mins game and not all in 6 mins build?
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I'm going to link some of the best players in the world using cheesy tactics in Brood War. Remember, these guys (best... july... reach... flash....) they are miles better than anyone playing starcraft 2 at the moment.
Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
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Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!
Do you even read what you write? Im not talking about 200 apm player's, i'm speaking from average joe perspective. From average joe the zerg perspective willy the protoss that makes proxy pylon at 8 behind the rock's before even moving probe to your base isnt there to make the game better, he is there to win the game couse he knows that most of zerg player's won't scout at 7th drone and wont have a chance vs his so immense and skill requiring 2 zealot push. And from MY expieriance willy the protoss will have terrible micro and macro and that's why he trying to win in 6 minuts.
(EDIT: Missed "wont" before 7th :P )
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Well time to stop sucking and losing to cheese over and over again then :)
Basically people who whine about cheese are usually just as terrible as the people who do cheese.
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Seems Narw is confusing bad players who use cheese to win with cheesing itself.
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So just becouse i find cheese disgusting you assume i suck? So place for "sincere discussion" is here only if i agree with your point of view?
And lucky for me Blizzard agree's with MY and loads of other players point of view, not yours, thats why zealot making time will be incrased and same thing will happen to reaper.
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If you don't like early rushing cheese stuff, play in the practice league with all its rocks? :)
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That doesn't change the fact that cheesy tactics that rely on surprise, come early and are all-in will still exist in the game. I thought the topic was if cheesy tactics were good for the game or not!
I didn't know we were discussing a specific cheesy tactic that may or may not be too strong and hard to counter in the current situation.
I'm all for fixing things that are imbalanced. I do think 5-rax reaper is a bit too strong against zerg for example.
But let's not confuse the topics of cheese and balance.
Basically, there will always be early aggressive all-in tactics, and if you don't see them coming you will lose. If they nerf X, then Y will just be the next cheese. What I'm saying is that cheesy tactics are the only thing that prevent me from autopiloting drones and just macro-festing it up every game.... well that and timing pushes.
Edit: No, I don't think you suck. In fact I'm pretty sure you are in the competition for the best IE player along with myself and sparrowhawk. "stop sucking" was only in reference to slacking on scouting.
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Void rays.
/thread
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If you don't like early rushing cheese stuff, play in the practice league with all its rocks? :)
But you see, i dont have problem winning vs cheesers usually, i even wrote here earlier what i do and it works like, i dont know 90% of time at my mmr
"In 1v1 i just assume that at least 50% of players will try to "outplay" me in first 6-10 minutes of game and send early drone to scout (first or second drone i got, depending on map). If he dosnt go cheese i wont be so badly behind, if he goes for cheese it usually wins me match/saves a lot of nerves."
Im not amazing player so 1 drone early game wont put me at horrid disadvantage later in game and it will stop the early push.
What I'm saying is that cheesy tactics are the only thing that prevent me from autopiloting drones and just macro-festing it up every game.... well that and timing pushes.
And i agree with that, but this game is so fresh that there are quite a few inbalanced mechanincs in it atm, and most of early cheese play relies on abusing em.
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Well maybe it's just a different mindset...
I've always dealt with problems instead of avoiding them or whining about them.
And I consider cheesers mostly free points! I have like 80/20 win ratio against cheesy tactics. (I lose to good timing pushes)
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Narw - I added you to friends in sc2 Cool... lets have a game and try to cheese me
Yeah, i will make a prox hatch.
Well I was thinking zerg's cheese was the 6-pool or smth :P
I mean come on, if you can not scout on a small map then you deserve to get cheesed by someone who knows the map and tactic better than you.
So i heard that proxy gateway is overwhelming vs zerg on the internets, ima gonna try, ima skilled. No.
If you do scout early you can see the gate before it comes out. If you scout with your 6th drone rather than the 12th you will have your zerglins out before he gets the first zealot out. Not to mention that it wins you the game.
Not to mention cheese is fun and entertaining especially when it fails and you are forced to keep playing out of the box, out of the regular in order to remain in the game and maybe win.
What the hell is fun and entertaining in mindvision build you assume you do before the gates open? You are aware 90% of cheesers dosnt scout you? They just assume you go for standard build?
Well if you assume always keep in mind you have at least 50% chances of being wrong (considering there is only one 'standard' build). That being said, its only your fault. And cheesy tactics arent made to win games but rather balance them in your favour. Now, if you lose to them it is only your fault. Ofc many noobs do them, but the same way they learned how to do those tactics others can learn to sacrifice a drone to circle around the map searching for proxies. Pros do it, they copy, why cant the loser copy the solution as well?
And Kage, what you miss from your point is the fact that some people might like short active games, that force you to micro and macro better and continuous.
What?
A proxy near your base forces you to act accordingly, to change your strat, micro more and macro in the same time.
I don't get it, Draconis is speaking so much truth it hurts and you think he's trolling?
I'm obviously blind then couse i fail to see that "so much truth". What i see is trying to justify a way of playing this game that kinda ruins the fun. Ask yourself why you barely see any kind of cheese replay's on sc2 replay sites? Maybe couse its way more interesting to actually watch a game full of micro AND macro, which usually is a 15-35 mins game and not all in 6 mins build?
Actually you do see cheese in loads of pro's games. But they counter them effectively.
I totally agree with Palmar regarding the cheese tactics - there will always be cheese tactics unless you make everyone immune in the first 5 minutes of the game and add some other retarded rules. In which case someone will probably build somehow to block you, mass cannon your base or smth and then go mass carriers with mothership.
And dont take everything personal :)
Peace!
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Well maybe it's just a different mindset...
I've always dealt with problems instead of avoiding them or whining about them.
And I consider cheesers mostly free points! I have like 80/20 win ratio against cheesy tactics. (I lose to good timing pushes)
The main problem here is that everyone here assumes i have problem playing vs cheese, which i havent wrote a SINGLE time. My main problem is that i prefer to have one 25 mins game when i can work on micro and macro and see my mighty roaches (they look so sweet!) march upon the filty protoss instead of having 4 games in row from which each one ends in 6 minuts of same boring stuff.
If you do scout early you can see the gate before it comes out. If you scout with your 6th drone rather than the 12th you will have your zerglins out before he gets the first zealot out. Not to mention that it wins you the game.
Thanks for giving me advice i gave to myself about 2-3 week's ago.
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I'm going to link some of the best players in the world using cheesy tactics in Brood War. Remember, these guys (best... july... reach... flash....) they are miles better than anyone playing starcraft 2 at the moment.
Cheese is important because it's the counter to greedy strategies, the catalyst to scouting, it makes the game better!
Btw I did love that 4d pool ::), was totally epic!
I've seen in many commentaries that not only t1 rushing with something is considered cheesy. The factory lifting with fast hellion is considered cheesy as well, or the hidden pylon voidray rush, or 11hidden1 banshee build, or fast dts and so on.
Basically they are considered cheesy cause you cant see them with a straight forward scout or with a scan.
Cheese is bold and risky - hence fun! In the end everyone can do whatever he/she wants as long as its not maphacking, dischacking or smth like that.
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Palmar speaks the truth!
Especially in 1v1 you have everything under your own control. There's no RNG in Starcraft (right?) and even though "cheese" might be easier to play than "non-cheese" at the same level, it's not impossible or extremely hard to beat it. Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I haven't even played rated games yet, but from everything I've watched, seen and read Starcraft is so insanely more balanced and based on skill than say, WoW PvP...
Unless you want to argue that there's a certain tactic that is impossible to beat (and even then, you can mirror it), there's always a way to win. You can't just say "oh this is lame they shouldn't be able to do this" just because you can't counter it. It's a competitive game and if you don't want to beaten by cheese you should work on getting better so that it won't happen again.
And Narw, the average Joe you speak of has the ability to improve as long as he's willing to. If the average Joe loses 50 matches in a row against the same strategy he shouldn't complain. That's his fault then, not the fault of the game. I see your point but I believe people shouldn't complain about a problem when there's (especially at the lower brackets) multiple solutions for it.
I just saw your new post Narw. You're right, that's probably a lot more fun. But shouldn't cheese happen less and less the higher you play? This should work as a good motivation then to get even better! :)
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Now this is what I talk about
Hope you enjoy this one ;)
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And Narw, the average Joe you speak of has the ability to improve as long as he's willing to. If the average Joe loses 50 matches in a row against the same strategy he shouldn't complain. That's his fault then, not the fault of the game
Im all for saying "trick me once shame on you, trick me twice shame on me".
You can't just say "oh this is lame they shouldn't be able to do this" just because you can't counter it.
5 Racks reapers is inbalanced and he should't be able to do it. And i can say that with straight face. This is still a game made by humans, and there are flaws in it. I will give an example.
5 rack reaper's force zerg to go heavy into roaches and get zerglings speed and play from one base and do that all in pressure of one mistake ending with you losing the match. (if zerg goes fast expand hatch half of mistake will cost him a game) At same time terran have the advantage of total map control, contain and doing whatever the hell he wants. When zerg reach critical mass or roaches to deal with reapers and be save the marouders push comes (which you get from same tech structure and being totally safe to any form of harras from zerg side). Marouder's push ends the game. This is cheesy and disgusting game play that relies totally on inbalance in game. Terran dosnt sacriface ANYTHING by going this build. If zerg manages to get mutas up with terran NOT scouting this with his reapers then zerg is way better player then terran. Power of this cheesy build however will let you propably beat 90% of zerg player's of same skill of yours. 90% percentage i made by myself, rest not.
This is generally the type of cheese i am strongly against. I dont have anything vs proxy pylon contain, it forces me to play creativly. I dont mind "factory lifting with fast hellion is considered cheesy as well, or the hidden pylon voidray rush, or 11hidden1 banshee build, or fast dts and so on" couse every single one of those is foult of a player. At some point you just realize that if other side player dosnt have enough of units, or strange choke there is something strange going on, its also quite late in game and generally if i would lose to stuff like that i would be angry at myself for shit play, not on opponent play. There is load's of time to scout that stuff, you should have way's to deal with it anyway.
Thats not the case with that example reapers build. I'm not angry at myself if i lose to that. I want the person that does that to go eat a dick.
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Can't you really think of any other solution to 5rax reapers than mass speed roaches?
I mean you have overlords mate, you see them coming. I for one just held my ground in front of a 4rax reaper push with about 6-7 spinecrawlers 4 queens and speedlings. Having expo in the same time. Unfortunately for him he did go marauders after and I as a risky cheesy player went mutas. I guess mutas speedlings kind owned his build. By the time he started poping marines I had about 11 mutas in his base with speedlings knocking at the door.
True I got lucky... basically cause I lost to the same strat 3 games earlier, still I learned.
Anyway, I think we can all work to figure counters to annoying strats.
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Okay, thanks for elaborating. I'm pretty certain however that everyone will agree that imbalances are not good. But what one person sees as imbalance, the other person will see it as "if I don't make that mistake that costs me the game, I'll win!" and that person will consider it a part of skill. It seems Palmar is more leaning towards "if a strategy at my skill level is beatable, it's not imbalanced" and you are leaning more towards "if, at the same skill level, a certain strategy is way more rewarding, it's imbalanced". It's not your exact words, but how it seems you two more or less look at it in a different way. Fix me if I'm wrong!
But who knows, maybe there are strategies that you haven't thought of yet and you'll turn it around the next time...
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Can't you really think of any other solution to 5rax reapers than mass speed roaches?
I mean you have overlords mate, you see them coming. I for one just held my ground in front of a 4rax reaper push with about 6-7 spinecrawlers 4 queens and speedlings. Having expo in the same time. Unfortunately for him he did go marauders after and I as a risky cheesy player went mutas. I guess mutas speedlings kind owned his build. By the time he started poping marines I had about 11 mutas in his base with speedlings knocking at the door.
True I got lucky... basically cause I lost to the same strat 3 games earlier, still I learned.
Anyway, I think we can all work to figure counters to annoying strats.
Im afraid we wont have a talking here. If terran sucks so badly to not abuse that you had to spend 700 minerals and 7 drones at immobile defence, let you made em, you using another 600 minerals on queen, did let you get expo, let you spend 600 minerals on 4 queens and didnt scouted your spire then allow to made you made 11 MUTAS (LOL) do you seriously belive he was worth anything more then SHIT? Gz on you won vs 30 apm retard.
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I got proxyed (Barreks flown into the corner of my base) (walled in by protoss cannons), and that just made me learn to properly scout round my base.
And as such have not been proxyed since.
In reguard to Marien+marorders...hi my names bainlings. or later down the line infestors.
I think its all about practise and like everyone has said .. scouting.
One thing i always forget to do is get your speed up grade for overlords or grab an overseer with in 10mins and just run it past the toss/terron wall to see what hes up too. your lose the unit by will see that 5rax .. or x3 stargates and can respond approperatly.
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I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.
The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.
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I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.
The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.
Fair enough, I might have went wrong, though I dropped the first 3 spines when I saw the first 2 raxes with tech. My defense was 6-7 spines and four queens + speedlings while chasing and running around my base. Though I dropped the minerals on spines and had gas for mutas. It was Xel'Naga Caverns, I was top and used to block the spire in my top left corner of the base blocking him and having one of the spines in range.
I didnt go for roaches cause they are crappy with no upgs and reapers have bigger range, even though they would rock with 1 dmg upg and speed vs reapers.
Anyway, I havent fought against 5 rax reapers terran with zerg more than 3, maybe 4 times. So you obviously know better.
To continue the subject... what else is cheesy out there?! :) I wanna know and try it out :P
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You can see how annoying the reapers are vs roaches :) you can also see the range difference.
Hence my last suggestion, though I'm not saying that I did right or anything.
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I'm gonna have to side with narw on the 5rax reaper thing. if you defended it with 6 sunkens, the terran is probably just bad.
The only real counter to the 5rax reaper is one base roach/hydra play, but that sets you up for a weaker mid-game since the 5rax reaper has strong expanding capabilities.
Fair enough, I might have went wrong, though I dropped the first 3 spines when I saw the first 2 raxes with tech. My defense was 6-7 spines and four queens + speedlings while chasing and running around my base. Though I dropped the minerals on spines and had gas for mutas. It was Xel'Naga Caverns, I was top and used to block the spire in my top left corner of the base blocking him and having one of the spines in range.
I didnt go for roaches cause they are crappy with no upgs and reapers have bigger range, even though they would rock with 1 dmg upg and speed vs reapers.
Anyway, I havent fought against 5 rax reapers terran with zerg more than 3, maybe 4 times. So you obviously know better.
To continue the subject... what else is cheesy out there?! :) I wanna know and try it out :P
problem with your idea is that you then you need what... 4 spines at main and expansion, and 4 queens...
that's 1200 minerals and 8 drones?
if you're 1200 minerals and 8 drones behind, you've already lost the game.
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Well you get 2 queens anyway, vs terran or protoss I get 3 queens anyway.
The whole build was over 5 mins of harrasing so we were like 12-14 mins in the game when I had all the queens and spines. So on a 3-4 mins timespan with almost 2 bases 1300 minerals aint that much.
The basic thing is that he didnt scout/see the spire and I got lucky vs the mara. If he would have transitioned in mmm rather than full mara was over.
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Not to mention queens are great vs reapers, they can get tons of hits and heal themselves. Spines have range... the longer I'm thinking, at my lvl I did an ok choice :P
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I cant edit so I'm sorry for the spam ... but I've even seen Demaga doing the same strat (spamming zerglins and sending em after the reapers, buyng time for the spire to finish) just with less spines in the last 64 player Korean SC cup selection or smth.
SO there! :P Ill even try to find one of the replays.
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but I've even seen Demaga doing the same strat <cut> just with less spines in the last 64 player Korean SC cup selection or smth.
I highlighted the important part.