Banned Heroes and rules?

[forker]

As I havent played Dota for a week or so I'd like to know what all the fuzz is about Knight Davion. Apparantly he's "banned" or adviced not to play in some way.

http://www.dota-allstars.com/hero/1877/index.html

Now I'd like to ask why it's like that as I see the hero as being an "okay" hero. It's not super and you can only keep the ulti up ~45% of the time. The ulti is good, yes. But there are ITEMS That can slow aswell. If it's about the AoE, Knight Davion is the heroes with the least base damage, for a reason. So you pick to play him as an unkillable tank or a DPS machine with nice AoE. If you pick the last choice he'll be pretty good later on but not "unstoppable" like many other heroes.

A decent played: Broodmother, N'aix and even Tidehunter is far more powerful not to mention any of the basher heroes would actually slaughter this hero no matter what items you get.

What is the reason behind this ban or is it just because you guys cannot counter him?

Then on the other hand the Broodmothers ulti is in my opinion far more powerful.
http://www.dota-allstars.com/hero/1902/index.html

Level 3 - 90 bonus damage, 80% life steal. - 30 sec cooldown. The spider first of all has a really high damage, spiderlings ,slow and then that crazy ultimate that is up 66% of the time! Far more then Knight Davions ultimate and in my opinion much stronger. What can Knight Davion do against the broodmother? Not much really. Stun once, flame breath and then shot a few times, but in the end. What good does it do? 80% leech kind of cancels any damage done to the spider.

If you don't believe me about this I'd gladly have the one who think they can play Knight Davion the best and I'll play the spider and then we'll see who has the biggest impact on the game and also on the team. I'm pretty sure the spider would win by very much.

http://www.dota-allstars.com/hero/1922/index.html
http://www.dota-allstars.com/hero/1899/index.html
http://www.dota-allstars.com/hero/1898/index.html
These heroes on the other hand are also very stupidly overpowered. The stun of a basher hero can't be countered in any. Linkens doesnt even ignore the first stun and Black King Bar doesnt work either .

As I see it if you actually want to ban heroes don't just target one hero that has been played fairly good a few games, go for the ones that fucking slaughter the entire game instead. Yesterday we had the spider in 2 games and I think it was close to 20 kills and less then 5 deaths within the first 45 minutes of the game with the spider both of the times. If we're going to ban heores we will not just stop with one hero.


The most annoying thing when we play is when people don't push though. After 45 minutes, killed one rax and if you completly dominate the game, finish it! I know that some people, even people on my team when I say I was pushing they just didnt follow as they wanted a longer game. Can't blame them if they arent used to get the fancy items but it's very annoying for the other team and I'd like to see a rule against this!

These rules are taken from Dotapickup.com (#Dotapickup.euro @ Quakenet)
#  Prolong

    * There is consider no prolong scenarios before 40 min. Do not whine or demand anything from enemy team until 40m (or even after, if the game seems balanced)!
    * After 40 min if a team dominates other, the weaker one can ask for push. If winning team refuses to do a strong push (5 man push OR any push in which a building was destroyed) in 10 min they might prolong.
    * Killing Roshan: when your team clearly dominates the other (big score difference, lanes down), killing Roshan after 40 min can be considered prolong.
    * This rules can't be 100% sure for all games. In most cases a replay must be watched, time spent and severe punishments. So better end games as soon as you can!

How many times don't we go and kill Roshan when one team is completly OP? I'm not saying it's always like that but sometimes it really is.

[Inphy]

Well, all heroes are overpowered if used correctly. And it all depends on what heroes you get against you. DoTA is very balanced, there is not an overpowered hero.

[Gaeios(Graxlos)]

These discussions have been going on for years and they are really not easy to solve.

The main issue is lategame and early game heroes.

Strength and agility heroes usually scale a lot better with levels and gear compared to int heroes. So usually that is quite apparent if a game gets to the point of people playing lvl 20+ chars.

If a skilled player gets darkterror and he doesnt get focused/cced/ganked(as he should be) he will be stupidly op at the lategame.
Troll warlord can become quite insane aswell but no where near the strength of darkterror as troll cant aoestun everything and blink away and even get insane amounts of passive dodge.

But the thing is that in the early stages of the game these heroes are not very powerful and a wellplayed intelligence(nuker) hero should be able to farm them since they both start with very low hp.

The way to counter such heroes is always to get some sheepsticks and try to keep them from permabashing.

If your team is actually working together I think the synergies between some heroes are much more imba than actual heroes, should we ban hero combinations as well?

Personally I find some of the dota-pickup rules a bit lame, but all the different dota-leagues have different rules and different banned items.

Like you are not allowed to all buy necromonicon and that aoehealing thing I cant recall the name of, because if you are really good micromanaging players you gain too big an advantage ..... (L2P)

Prolonging can be an issue but its always hard to call when it actually applies since  camping your base is a really good and lame strategy and if your enemyteam is doing that because your team has a slight lvl advantage it is a much better choice to go get roshan first from a strategic pov.
But its generally a good thing to have rules about since some people can really lame like because they want a specific insane itembuild and would prefer a longer game to get it

Basically I think we should take it easy with all these rules.
Learn the counters(itembuilds mainly) to the imba heroes and learn to laneswap more so if your team has a newb, he wont get farmed as much.

[Archz]

I think I could've countered the spider ok with the troll, but I didn't get any good items and the spider farmed the entire team so he got 4-5 lvls above me ^^

[Gaeios(Graxlos)]

The reason the spider isnt considered that imba is that he needs the correct circumstances to shine.
Against a stun hero he cant do shit, or any other cc'er for that matter.

He is only really imba if he gets a big lvl advantage because people are not being careful enough.

If you get a spider in your lane and you dont have a hero that can counter him well then ask for a laneswap.

Spell aoe'rs and stunners are great against him. So annoying when people can kill you while you are hiding in your webs

[Zakk]

i personally believe there are no really realy op heroes in dota, well there aren't any who dominate as much as previous heroes have its just a matter of knowing your own hero and knowing what theirs does.  Specifically also knowing in a team battle who to attack. its always bad going for knight davion first in a team battle cos of his ridiculous hp so just stun him and beat the crap out of the squishy things at the back without his dps support knight davion does no damage at all really as someone else pointed out.

[Starbrow]

While my dota knowledge is limited I must admit I enjoy the game regardles of the heroes I play against. I don't really feel I get raped more often by certain heroes, I just get raped a lot in general In my eyes it's far more about the players than the heroes, as I've played some of the heroes you call OP so often, and not really been anything special with them.

I know it can be frustrating to have a hero against you that counters you perfectly, but hopefully the table will turn next game, and you'll have the insane hero. It's really nothing to die over...

[Kawe / Dave]

As I said just a bit to you on vent, Davion's ultimate (elder dragon form) is up more often on the most recent map (60 seconds of every 100). Other key differences between Davion and Broodmother include the obvious things like AoE attack that is 100% ranged cleave with slow as soon as he hits level 16, massive movement speed, and we all know lifesteal is situational and of course, melee range.

In a team battle, the differences are more pronounced. Broodmother need only take a single stun and will be crushed quickly without the lifesteal due to lack of attacks. If Davion takes a stun... so what? He's extremely tough. A strength character with very high movespeed, extra regen and large armour as well as top damage, and a permanent slowing effect that's 100% reliable.

To top it all off, Davion isn't "weak" early game. He's actually one of the hardest characters to kill early at all, due to his high hp, armour and additional regen combined with a stun. His level 6 dragon form even has additional damage versus towers, then at level 11 splash damage for farming, and at 16 I think we don't need to say much more about that ice breath

Basically, in the newest map (the one we play) he is the perfect hero. He can push, tank, dps, gank, escape, everything. Well, nearly everything - he can't heal, but he does have the regen. I think it's fair to say he's rather broken in his current state. No other hero can come close to matching him overall.

[Smorisha]

choo chooooooooo

[Palmar]

Basically, I don't really think we need any rules against heroes. Davion is certainly strong when we have all the good players playing, along with omniknight, abbadon and other similar powerful heroes.

Gankers are very powerful when we have some newer people that they can feed on, broodmother, barathrum, faceless void trax/clinkz etc.

So the big thing is probably how the games are set up. And luckily there doesn't seem to be any player losing constantly. Even some of our newer players are getting really good scores once in a while (Tyler last night!).

Anyway, I don't like any rules really except no-backdooring, and no leaving (Smor/Star/Sint) I don't care how bad your game is, don't leave it!

[forker]

Smor never left as far as I can remember? But yeah, I agree. Leaving is horrible.

I play knight davion well only because he lets me play "my game". I'm very good at last hitting creeps and if I play Knight Davion I can usually do that easily without worrying too much about the others because of the health regen and that will usually make him very strong in the end. That +hp armor skill is awesome early on but not very good late game.

He's also very independant which fits me as when I try to organize anything at all within my team people just tend to ignore it with the exception of a very few people...and as always me being impatient is very bad too.

Punished me horribly in all games I've played -_-.

Gib action please?

[Kawe / Dave]

Smor never left as far as I can remember? But yeah, I agree. Leaving is horrible.

I play knight davion well only because he lets me play "my game". I'm very good at last hitting creeps and if I play Knight Davion I can usually do that easily without worrying too much about the others because of the health regen and that will usually make him very strong in the end. That +hp armor skill is awesome early on but not very good late game.

He's also very independant which fits me as when I try to organize anything at all within my team people just tend to ignore it with the exception of a very few people...and as always me being impatient is very bad too.

Punished me horribly in all games I've played -_-.

Gib action please?

4hp/sec is good the whole game through. That's a free ring of health. The armour is also excellent whole game through, much more so on a strength hero who would otherwise be very much lacking in it a la every other strength hero.