Iron Edge
Iron Edge => General Discussion => Topic started by: Inphy on July 23, 2011, 09:51:32 pm
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I just had to post something about it. I haven't seen any post on the forum about it, not that there is anything to discuss.
We have quite a few Norse people on these forums, and some might even knew a victim. Therefore my condolences!
For those living in a wooden box:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14262956
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This shit sucks so hard.
My condolences, Norway did nothing to deserve this.
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I was shocked when I heard about this, just unbelievable and totally unexpected that it happened in Norway. Also this is even bigger than other massacres in other countries... Luckily I live far away from there...
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Horrible indeed ;\ It's amazing how only 7 (?) people died to the bomb considering the damage it caused.
The guy had to be damn determined to go through with something like this tho.
Here's a blog entry from one of the survivors if you want to read it through her perspective; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8656963/Norway-shooting-politician-describes-witnessing-Utoya-massacre-on-her-blog.html
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I couldn't read the entire blog. It's so surreal, like you're reading a horror book from Stephen King. And to imagine that it took so long. 5 minutes feels like 3 hours when you're in a situation like that, what would an hour feel like.
So horrible :/ And the worst part is, it's getting overshadowed by the death of Amy Winehouse :S A death we could all see coming.
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I've read some of the pages of his manifesto now, and watched the video he published to youtube - to me, it appears it boils down to a fear of Islam taking over europe, as the numbers of muslims increase every day, and thus the number of votes they gain in democratic elections threaten what's left of the "pure" europe\nations.
But killing off all the young politicians make little to no sense to me, if he truely wanted to have europe cleansed from Islam by 2083, I doubt this would be the way to do it, allthough our future prime minister could have been assassinated the 22nd of July.. wouldn't a political career be better?
leaving some links in a spoiler if anyone else wants to read up.. such an insane human creature..
[spoiler]
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread731857/pg1
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1UPMWXTEq9DqhcWBXXRZhMwqDuYsiMahzVIpeK6s9-j0&ndplr=1&pli=1 [/spoiler]
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He almost appears narcissistic due to the fact that he killed all those people on the island and not himself. The fact that he did not strike one day earlier indicates that he didn't want the prime minister to be there, probably due to security. I think he intended to do as much harm to the "enemies" as possible and then blowing up stortingets buildings and the slaugher of the child version of the leading political party seams like targets that you'd really make an impact by attacking. The fact that he choose Ut?ya proves that he wanted to do as much damage as possible.
I base all this on absolutely nothing but my own ideas btw.
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My sis lives really close to one of the bombing places, but she was out for lunch when it blew, she was 5-10 minutes (walkdistance) away from there yet felt the explosion.
She thought they were just trying the cannons or something. Gnarly stuff.
Where did he get hold of the police outfit btw?
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My sis lives really close to one of the bombing places, but she was out for lunch when it blew, she was 5-10 minutes (walkdistance) away from there yet felt the explosion.
She thought they were just trying the cannons or something. Gnarly stuff.
Where did he get hold of the police outfit btw?
Can't you get very look alike-ish police officer costumes from any halloween shop now days? Goofing around online might come up with some sellers as well. I don't think they have to be a complete look-alike to fool most people.
That or he killed a cop and took his uniform.
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Was a vekter uniform, anyone can get one of those, really..
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Ah, they should write security uniform then instead of police uniform >:U
Fucking news.
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I told you that the Scandinavian nationalism is bad...!
Obviously it doesn't excuse this atrocity, but still -- if he really did it because he's 'afraid' of the muslims... that's probably something to talk about. How on earth do you get to that point? Imagine how much he must hate muslims if he is willing to kill 100+ of his own countrymen...
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I have no words for this. It's so horrible that it hits me deep in my soul.
I consider myself lucky not knowing anyone involved, but my DEEPEST condolences goes to the involved and family / friends of the victims.
I'm attending a memorial for the victims of this massacre today, in F?rde, Norway.
My feelings goes to the involved.
> Longjacket
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So I heard he can only get 21 years in prison... what happened to a lynching mob hanging him from the highest tree and setting him on fire? :)
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So I heard he can only get 21 years in prison... what happened to a lynching mob hanging him from the highest tree and setting him on fire? :)
That is the highest sentence you can get in Norway as of now, they're gonna up it to 30 years though, iirc. But what he can get is like... called "forvaring" in Norway, not sure about the english word. Which is basically, he's in jail for 5-10 years, his sentence gets put up, he gets new 5-10 years, and this can go on till he dies. Or something like that.
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Its the same in denmark. Forvaring is basically locking a guy a up and considering if he is safe to release every 10 years or so.
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It's pretty safe to say that this guy will never set foot outside a prison/institution ever again :p
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what he did is disgusting..i actually sat down and read his "manifesto" he seriously borders on psychosis and i am so afraid to even think he will highly possibly get away with the insanity plea..
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I told you that the Scandinavian nationalism is bad...!
Obviously it doesn't excuse this atrocity, but still -- if he really did it because he's 'afraid' of the muslims... that's probably something to talk about. How on earth do you get to that point? Imagine how much he must hate muslims if he is willing to kill 100+ of his own countrymen...
This has nothing to do with his beliefs, political opinions or plans.
This has everything to do with him being a mass-murdering fuckhead.
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Indeed.
Whats worse, an attention seeking one. The Norwegian Courts have done well in making it a closed court, and limiting his contact with the press.
They really should just execute him; but if they can't just lock him away, for life, and don't allow any visitors.
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to be honest the best punishment for someone like him would be life time in solitary no contact with anyone from the outside so he cannot "enjoy his fame" as he see's it.
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We dont want to execute a guy like that, that would make him a martyr for some people. Then he would have fansites all over -.-
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Yep, solitary confinement for 60+ years definitely sounds like a plan (though I don't know if that'd be allowed by law!)
Palmar - you don't just wake up, have a psychotic break, and murder 100 people. Or you can, I guess, but he wouldn't have said all that stuff about Islam, or written a manifesto, if he didn't think it would create an effect.
Put it this way, he might not personally hate muslims -- but he almost certainly knows that there's an underlying 'Scandinavia is afraid of immigrants' sentiment.
To put it another way, he almost certainly did it to create as big an effect as possible -- and he decided that the whole muslim thing was the right angle for that purpose. He could've killed people in the name of Nazis, or Jews, or paedophiles, or Christians -- but he chose muslims.
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I think the point is that the scandinavian nationalism is about as relevant of this psychos act as islam has on religious wars.
If anything as a scandinavian I'm actually a bit proud after this act, there's no surge of revenge, no outrages on HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? in our magazines (atleast not the respectable ones) and no general anger over this, just sadness.
It's a sad thing that happened, but it happened due to some random fuckhead that might aswell have been leftwing/muslim/jew fighting for some other cause.
Scandinavian nationalism, disregarding our cultural disease that is the Jantelaw, in general is a pretty good thing - our nationalistic thinking (especially Norway) is generally that we're considered pretty nice dudes and should be less douchey towards our fellow men. Another thing I'd like to comment on is that I don't think any scandinavian country is afraid of immigrants, but the general aspect of the immigration politics we enforce are horribly frowned upon.
Most intelligent people in Sweden are well aware that a big portion of Swedens wealth and wellbeing is built upon the backs of hardworking earnest immigrants and the only thing that sucks are leechers of the system. Which is equally disliked, disregarding the colour of your skin.
So, to scoot back to the general point, if anything this shooting proves that Scandinavian nationalism is great. As tragic as this whole ordeal is, we're all just mourning over the loss instead of pointing fingers towards irrelevant targets of society that shares the less extreme views as this delusional looney.
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Good post nach, I concur!
Personally, I'm megacurious on how this could happen, but realise that it's for the best to leave it be and mourne the losses.
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Yep, solitary confinement for 60+ years definitely sounds like a plan (though I don't know if that'd be allowed by law!)
Palmar - you don't just wake up, have a psychotic break, and murder 100 people. Or you can, I guess, but he wouldn't have said all that stuff about Islam, or written a manifesto, if he didn't think it would create an effect.
Put it this way, he might not personally hate muslims -- but he almost certainly knows that there's an underlying 'Scandinavia is afraid of immigrants' sentiment.
To put it another way, he almost certainly did it to create as big an effect as possible -- and he decided that the whole muslim thing was the right angle for that purpose. He could've killed people in the name of Nazis, or Jews, or paedophiles, or Christians -- but he chose muslims.
That's exactly my point, he was a mass murdering obsessive fuckhead, sure, this guy chose to obsess about muslims, but it could really have been anything.
So, the first thing that guy wants and the last thing we should do, is to actually consider his political opinions.
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Good post nach, I concur!
Personally, I'm megacurious on how this could happen, but realise that it's for the best to leave it be and mourne the losses.
Mix together psychopathy, intelligence and obsession.
Apparently the Norwegian intelligence service had noted the amount of fertilizer that guy was buying.
I mean, while I don't think anyone wants a sick fuck like this guy to affect our politics, I think it's something scandinavia and europe needs to come to terms with. More money needs to be spent on defense, security and intelligence, Europe total spends less than half of what the USA spends.
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Nationalism is always bad IMO.
This does not prove anything about scandinavian nationalism, but that Norway is a good functioning democracy that should be applauded.
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I agree, the worst thing we can do is put this guy on a soap box or listen to his manifesto - I'm just saying that he almost certainly chose muslims because he wanted to create the biggest effect possible.
It isn't about the 'intelligent people', Nach. The liberals (which make up most intelligent people) aren't going to be the ones shouting 'CLOSE THE BORDERS!'.
It will be the conservative, nationalistic 'dumb' people who were being targeted by this murderer.
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I only think that Nationalism that excludes is bad, nationalism that includes isn't bad at all.
I used to work with a greek that really felt at home in Sweden and felt included into our society immediately in the early 80's when he first came here - he considers himself a part of Sweden and considers himself a Swedish nationalist in the same regard.
So I don't think it's the nationalism per se that's bad, I think being able to be proud of your origin and also being proud of where you currently are, not only geographically but also culturally is really great.
Inclusive nationalism is fine, "Scandinavia is great, come join us!" - it's when things turn into "You better be born in Scandinavia you knave or you ain't worth shit" that shit turns ugly.
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I don't think that's Nationalism, with a capital N :)
But maybe we need Shiftey to wade in with his political clout...
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*shrug*
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Well I guess nationalism is just sort of... not a good word.
There is nothing wrong with being proud of the values we stand for, but those values are inherently anti-racist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
This kind of shit is what Scandinavian "nationalism" is about, it's pride in the society we've created. Is it bad that we're proud of it? I'm pretty sure it's good that people are proud of maintaining good values, an open society and preserving freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI
Every index on human rights, crime rate, human developement, democracy, freedom of speech, liberty, economic freedom etc etc, anything that modern societies strive to achieve, you will find the Nordic countries right at the top.
This is no coincidence, this is the result of the society our people created, it's not wrong to be proud of that.
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Apparently the Norwegian intelligence service had noted the amount of fertilizer that guy was buying.
I mean, while I don't think anyone wants a sick fuck like this guy to affect our politics, I think it's something scandinavia and europe needs to come to terms with. More money needs to be spent on defense, security and intelligence, Europe total spends less than half of what the USA spends.
So you want Europe to be the main troop supplier for two ongoing wars, hold the most expensive army, fleet and airforce in the world and commit huge resources to military R&D? There's a reason why the US spends a lot more on "defence", mainly that it plays a whooly different role in world politics/military than the EU.
I agree that internal intelligence sharing needs to be boosted for the greater security of all, but nearly no matter how much you spend on securing your population it won't prevent a lone psycho like this one from getting a hold of an automatic weapon and a security uniform and then going on a killing spree on a small island. While it may have something to do with spending on intelligence, this case has nothing to do with national defense budgets.
I also concurr with the statements that proud inclusive nationalism (patriotism?) is fine for all intents and purposes and nothing to be ashamed of. It's the rightwing exclusive nationalism which is a problem. It's clear that this political wing has blossomed in the last decade or so in Scandinavia, but this is also due to the fact that Scandinavia has a different welfare system compared to the rest of the EU, which leads to "leeches" and some resentment in that direction. It's hard to prevent the more stupid part of the population from generalising and thinking that most people on the government tit are immigrants even if this is wrong, which leads to the support of said views.
This guy is in a whole other league though.
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Ive never heard of this kind of "inclusive nationalism", that would not be my definition of nationalism. Just liking your own country and being proud of it does not make you a nationalist IMO.
from merriam webster:: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.
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I guess patriotism is a better word, yeah.
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And the thing is, what this guy was "fighting" for wasnt Norway alone. He was afraid the muslims would take over all of Europe, as far as I've understood it. So what he was wasn't a norwegian nationalist, he was in his own mind fighting for all of Europe, starting with killing of innocent norwegians.
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Yep, solitary confinement for 60+ years definitely sounds like a plan (though I don't know if that'd be allowed by law!)
it depends =s i am unsure about many many Norwegian laws >.< but i know it would be no problem in America >.< depends on the human rights as far as i know those are mostly void when an act of terrorism is in the question so fock knows >.<! his lawyer said "he is clearly insane and on some kind of drugs" yeee..i am hoping this guy isn't so smart and won't be able to get him off the charges :)
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It might be against european law.
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i feel bad in saying it but for him i hope it's not
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It's the circle of life. People move to places where they can get a better life. Happened from 35.000bC until now.
But I have to agree that at some point a government must act and close their borders. It is too much for a country/nation to accept millions of foreign people into their own nation in a very short period of time. It is bound for trouble. It's inevitable to fence yourself from foreigners as I said earlier, that's the circle of life (Oh yeah Lion King!), but it shouldn't be one massive wave in a very short time.
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I dont think we should make this in to a for/against immigration discussion thread. Make a new thread for that.
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True that!
I can't my mind on one thing though. Would you considers Anders to be sick, as in mentally disturbed. Or did he just have strong ideas? Would strong ideas make someone crazy/psychotic?
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No country accepts 'millions of foreign people into their own lands' -- except perhaps America.
Even the UK, which was once the center of the largest empire the world has ever seen, only has two or three million immigrants -- and those have come to us over the last 200 years (and at what point do they stop being immigrants and become citizens?)
This is kind of the point that I was trying to make (though Inphy isn't a Scandinavian) -- there is a 'feeling' that we're being 'invaded' by millions of immigrants. It's not true -- but it's a strong enough belief that this murderer chose it as his attack vector.
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The current guys speaking like this Breivik character often uses retoric claiming that the problem is the muslims having more children than non muslims and that way slowly outnumbering us......
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Yep, the Serbs believe the same thing about Albanians -- that they have a 'master plan' where they basically out-breed the Orthodox Christians and take over.
Could be true, I guess.