Oslo Massacre

[delling]

I don't think that's Nationalism, with a capital N

But maybe we need Shiftey to wade in with his political clout...

[Nachmanun]

*shrug*

[Palmar]

Well I guess nationalism is just sort of... not a good word.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of the values we stand for, but those values are inherently anti-racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

This kind of shit is what Scandinavian "nationalism" is about, it's pride in the society we've created. Is it bad that we're proud of it? I'm pretty sure it's good that people are proud of maintaining good values, an open society and preserving freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI

Every index on human rights, crime rate, human developement, democracy, freedom of speech, liberty, economic freedom etc etc, anything that modern societies strive to achieve, you will find the Nordic countries right at the top.

This is no coincidence, this is the result of the society our people created, it's not wrong to be proud of that.

[Starbrow]

Apparently the Norwegian intelligence service had noted the amount of fertilizer that guy was buying.

I mean, while I don't think anyone wants a sick fuck like this guy to affect our politics, I think it's something scandinavia and europe needs to come to terms with. More money needs to be spent on defense, security and intelligence, Europe total spends less than half of what the USA spends.

So you want Europe to be the main troop supplier for two ongoing wars, hold the most expensive army, fleet and airforce in the world and commit huge resources to military R&D? There's a reason why the US spends a lot more on "defence", mainly that it plays a whooly different role in world politics/military than the EU.

I agree that internal intelligence sharing needs to be boosted for the greater security of all, but nearly no matter how much you spend on securing your population it won't prevent a lone psycho like this one from getting a hold of an automatic weapon and a security uniform and then going on a killing spree on a small island. While it may have something to do with spending on intelligence, this case has nothing to do with national defense budgets.

I also concurr with the statements that proud inclusive nationalism (patriotism?) is fine for all intents and purposes and nothing to be ashamed of. It's the rightwing exclusive nationalism which is a problem. It's clear that this political wing has blossomed in the last decade or so in Scandinavia, but this is also due to the fact that Scandinavia has a different welfare system compared to the rest of the EU, which leads to "leeches" and some resentment in that direction. It's hard to prevent the more stupid part of the population from generalising and thinking that most people on the government tit are immigrants even if this is wrong, which leads to the support of said views.

This guy is in a whole other league though.

[Gaeios(Graxlos)]

Ive never heard of this kind of "inclusive nationalism", that would not be my definition of nationalism. Just liking your own country and being proud of it does not make you a nationalist IMO.

from merriam webster:: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

[Palmar]

I guess patriotism is a better word, yeah.

[Kergash]

And the thing is, what this guy was "fighting" for wasnt Norway alone. He was afraid the muslims would take over all of Europe, as far as I've understood it. So what he was wasn't a norwegian nationalist, he was in his own mind fighting for all of Europe, starting with killing of innocent norwegians.

[velvetgeisha]

Yep, solitary confinement for 60+ years definitely sounds like a plan (though I don't know if that'd be allowed by law!)

it depends =s i am unsure about many many Norwegian laws >.< but i know it would be no problem in America >.< depends on the human rights as far as i know those are mostly void when an act of terrorism is in the question so fock knows >.<! his lawyer  said "he is clearly insane and on some kind of drugs" yeee..i am hoping this guy isn't so smart and won't be able to get him off the charges

[Daekesh]

It might be against european law.

[velvetgeisha]

i feel bad in saying it but for him i hope it's not

[Inphy]

It's the circle of life. People move to places where they can get a better life. Happened from 35.000bC until now.

But I have to agree that at some point a government must act and close their borders. It is too much for a country/nation to accept millions of foreign people into their own nation in a very short period of time. It is bound for trouble. It's inevitable to fence yourself from foreigners as I said earlier, that's the circle of life (Oh yeah Lion King!), but it shouldn't be one massive wave in a very short time.

[Gaeios(Graxlos)]

I dont think we should make this in to a for/against immigration discussion thread. Make a new thread for that.

[Inphy]

True that!

I can't my mind on one thing though. Would you considers Anders to be sick, as in mentally disturbed. Or did he just have strong ideas? Would strong ideas make someone crazy/psychotic?

[delling]

No country accepts 'millions of foreign people into their own lands' -- except perhaps America.

Even the UK, which was once the center of the largest empire the world has ever seen, only has two or three million immigrants -- and those have come to us over the last 200 years (and at what point do they stop being immigrants and become citizens?)

This is kind of the point that I was trying to make (though Inphy isn't a Scandinavian) -- there is a 'feeling' that we're being 'invaded' by millions of immigrants. It's not true -- but it's a strong enough belief that this murderer chose it as his attack vector.

[Gaeios(Graxlos)]

The current guys speaking like this Breivik character often uses retoric claiming that the problem is the muslims having more children than non muslims and that way slowly outnumbering us......