For Destro

[Destro]

Read the quotes if your really interested.

[Fatalbone]

Eh I am bored of saying the same things over and over again Destro. First I would felt insulted if you said England had always have a isolationist policy or Denmark was a expansionist country in 20th century I would felt much more insulted if you spewed nonsense about psychology and force it on people without evidence. My problem is with the things you believe that are right but indeed wrong. Also you could have just look the current theories on european union, enlargement of EU and Turkey and see that those ideas were not originally mine. There are literally hundreds of books out there about this topic. So yes there are a lot of people sharing "my" ideas.

I don't know if you know about the Belgian foreign minister's quote. About europe being a economic giant but a military dwarf. The problem about is not the number of soldiers but technology but about the organization. Just simple adding of numbers don't make an army. Becauce of the current system it is very hard to take any action reaching the consensus is very hard and many countries gave different interests.
You said EU can invade both hemispheres but in reality it even failed a simple peace keeping operation at its doorstep (bosnia). Currently they are trying to unifing the military organization under the Lisbon treaty but as you probably know it is not going so well.

There are lots of academic books and articles about EU and USA and the current world balance in which USA wants a unipolar world while some parts of EU wants to completely emerge as a world power (with a complete military structure). UK is one of the members who doesn't want more central EU and have very close relationship with USA and you know membership of UK was problematic too.

As I implied in my first post EU wants Turkey because of military not economy. Turkish membership will define the future EU politics (careful here destro not because turkey will exert force and change it) If Turkey is accepted that would be caused by EU members reaching consensus about the new direction. To make it simple

EU deciding having more military power----> This country doesn't add give us more economical power but it has military power. That seems beneficial for our interests

EU keeping the status quo and more economical power---->This country will cost us money and doesn't bring anything so no

And about politics... It is certainly about interests so I would normally expect EU to include Turkey if it is in line with its interests I wouldn't feel anything about it.

I said the economy part to prove you that adding Turkey wont be a huge strain. It is definately a not at the same level with the highly industrilized countries in EU but keep in mind that there are 27 countries in the union.

Turkey having a big economy is good because it makes it a better "market" that means you can sell more things. And keep in mind that most of the economy is under the small modern regions in western parts so it means there are few very rich people and lots of poor ones. Again something good for eu because you can sell high profit expensive goods. (although bad for the turkish people)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_number_of_US_dollar_billionaires
if you dont believe me

Yes the effects will be less because we are already in customs union. But this also means it will be much easier for turkish economy to adapt single market.

Also think like this

Cost of membership-15(benefit from customs union)=economical loss for EU

Turkey has a lot of young population (dynamic population) while most of the EU members have old people including new members. This means that when turkey becomes a member in 2025 (10 years for membership+5 for immigration rule) immigration might be something beneficial because there will be need for workers.

I am not saying there will be a net gain for taking Turkey in but what am I trying to say(as I said in my first post) is it won't be different from taking east european countries.

Here is my opinion on the EU. I don't think Turkey should be a member. EU already has too many members than it can handle. It is not so useful as an organization in political sphere anyway. Because of its current nature there is a need for high level of cooperation and consensus between countries but they all have different interests. Other than that being an EU member would mean having a foreign policy dependent to a bloc which would mean bad relationships with most of Middle east. I personally belive there is more to gain in having good relationships with neigbors. Best scenerio would be Turkey becoming more democratic and ME countries following it without having a "evil western overlords are forcing it so it is something bad". I can talk about it more if there will be a intelligent discussion.


I assumed "backstabing" in Afganistan was about sending troops because you haven't said anything what that was about and gave Iraq example with supply so I said Turkey send troops to Afganistan ("even" send troops which is something more than opening supply lines.)

About migration-- I haven't said anything because it was not in your original post. I wrote a text wall about general migration. Which was not my ideas again but the current dominant theories in sociology and psychology. You can read a book about it or find some articles on google scholar if you are lazy. First of all I never said Turkish people hate Turkish immigrants they just find them different from themselves. There is a huge difference. You have a problem with comprehension. Anyway yes there would be a big migration if there won't be a improvement in current economic conditions. But if we have a single monetary system and single market, there won't be so much to gain by migrating. Sure there will be still more money to gain but that will deter people they don't want to go alien place where nobody speaks their language. Also there will be flow of human capital to EU because educated people won't have hard time adapting and their life standards will increase. This flow would be negative for Turkey. Anyway your examples of polish and indian are not very meaningful. Indians lived under British for almost 4 hundred years; I am sure they know your language and culture more than turks. Polish are less related to your culture but still closer to England. So if algerians or some west africans were less problematic than Turks that would be a better example. Also as I said in economy part it might be beneficial for europe in 10-20 years.



About what Delling and Yathezaï are discussing

It is definately about morality but I am closer to Delling in this one. Although what Yathezai says make sense too. The thing is you believe something is right which make contradicting arguments wrong. And you want to force your right to others by force. Stoning is their ideal of justice and people believe that is just. Justice is created by their believers. Sure the woman being stoned doesn't like it but criminals don't like the system when they are prisioned either. There are probably some women who thinks their death is just because she believes the justice system. She would probably stone a women who commited adultery. In that sense people who declare cihad and invade other countries for the sake of islam is just trying to bring justice to those countries' unjust system (not stoning women). Yathezai's belief would give every country to invade or do something about the "unjust" in others. Which will turn into "might make right".

Honestly I don't really like the idea of not doing anything about horrible things like stoning so I am closer to "might make right" idea for the sake of not contradicting myself

[Föötmunch]

one nuke to solve them all....

[Destro]

Read the quotes if your really interested.

[Destro]

one nuke to solve them all....

We need a thumbs up option on forums if you agree with someone's comment... YOUTUBE STYLE!

[Destro]

Oooh i believe somewhere you suggested something about german and dutch nationals disagreeing with me on the opinion of turks...

WELL WELL WELL

http://www.maybenow.com/Why-do-germany-people-hate-turkish-inmigrants-q7810433

Pretty much reinforces and agrees with everything i have been saying...

[Fatalbone]

Sigh, talking to you is like talking to a brick fucking wall, I DONT WANT YOU TO REPEAT YOURSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IM SICK AND TIRED OF THE SAME BULLSHIT AND FALSE CLAIMS THAT YOU COME OUT WITH, YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.

Eh I am bored of saying the same things over and over again Destro. First I would felt insulted if you said England had always have a isolationist policy or Denmark was a expansionist country in 20th century I would felt much more insulted if you spewed nonsense about psychology and force it on people without evidence.

~Bullshit, the only reason you made this post is because your nationalistic pride was hurt, there were no other reasons for you to bring this up and continue it on for 7 pages of nonsense~

My problem is with the things you believe that are right but indeed wrong.

~You have not proven me wrong once so far, so i dont see what the gameplan is here.~

Also you could have just look the current theories on european union, enlargement of EU and Turkey and see that those ideas were not originally mine. There are literally hundreds of books out there about this topic. So yes there are a lot of people sharing "my" ideas.

 ~What does this have to do with everything? your just spurting bullshit completely off subject and then reinforcing yourself so that you look good, your acting like i dont know about anything on the subject of turkey and the EU, your acting like the whole idea of turkey possibly being in the EU is some new and exciting prospect. Turkey is a shithole full of snakes who have commited atrocities over centuries, there are many books about it, HISTORY BOOKS, and many people share "my" ideas. You see what i did there? I can play that game aswell

I don't know if you know about the Belgian foreign minister's quote. About europe being a economic giant but a military dwarf. The problem about is not the number of soldiers but technology but about the organization. Just simple adding of numbers don't make an army. Becauce of the current system it is very hard to take any action reaching the consensus is very hard and many countries gave different interests.
You said EU can invade both hemispheres but in reality it even failed a simple peace keeping operation at its doorstep (bosnia).

~Bosnia has been in crisis years before the EU forged any real substantial backing to each other. Moron. Thats like bringing up the falkland islands or some bullshit that happened years ago~

Currently they are trying to unifing the military organization under the Lisbon treaty but as you probably know it is not going so well.

~Yes i do know, and i hope that the lisbon treaty never gets pushed through as it is a fucking joke. And you are right, you cant just combine forces together and hope to be a power based off numbers alone, but lets think about something... what are the top 10 powers in the world? These may not be entirely accurate in terms of positioning, but its damn sure close.

1, America
2, China
3, Russia
4, India
5, United Kingdom
6, Germany
7, France  
8,Brazil
9, Japan
10, Turkey

Now as i said, you are right that adding pure numbers alone doesnt make a super power, but think about it, the UK, Germany, France and all the other EU nations would have to do, is fight battles on different fronts, using there own expertise and armies. That alone is a force to be reckoned with, and once the EU has fully merged into a full fledged fighting unit, only America could rival it. Most people believe the super power's of today to be, America > Europe > China > Russia > India, and if you base off of manpower, military equipment and technology, funding expenditure, potential funding expenditure, it just reinforces the above heirachy. There are many people that share this belief, and there are many books about it sharing "my" ideas. You see what i did there again?

There are lots of academic books and articles about EU and USA and the current world balance in which USA wants a unipolar world while some parts of EU wants to completely emerge as a world power (with a complete military structure). UK is one of the members who doesn't want more central EU and have very close relationship with USA and you know membership of UK was problematic too.

~France and Germany just want to act like the big dogs and dont want to be dragged into the 51st state like the UK have, personally i think it would be moronic not to work together with america, they are leaps and bounds ahead of any other nation, and it will be a hundred years before any other country will even be able to challenge them on a military level, and thats only if countries like India, China, and Brazil continue there economic and military growth, however if EU use close connections as the UK are with america, there will NEVER be a power to rival us, unless China, Russia, Brazil and india form some sort of allegiance, which as we all know, will NEVER happen, and even if they were to form together, i still doubt it will have the means to rival the AMERO (Nickname for EU and America)~

As I implied in my first post EU wants Turkey because of military not economy.

~ Bullshit, you barely touched ont he subject of turkey being beneficial from a military perspective, infact all i remember reading was a bunch of bullshit about turkey being the 17th largest economy in the world, along with some other bullshit, if you did acknowledge turkey is wanted largely for its military power, then why was the majority of your rant covering the economic side of turkey?~

Turkish membership will define the future EU politics

~Yeah you will be used as a gateway to tense middle eastern relations.~

And about politics... It is certainly about interests so I would normally expect EU to include Turkey if it is in line with its interests I wouldn't feel anything about it.

~Have no idea what this paragraph is trying to achieve, just seems like a load of nothing expressed in words.~

I said the economy part to prove you that adding Turkey wont be a huge strain. It is definately a not at the same level with the highly industrilized countries in EU but keep in mind that there are 27 countries in the union.

~As you have already acknowledge, there are other countries currently in the EU leaching and draining off the rest of us, why would we want to add more? the countries currently dragging us down are EU as of right and have been in the picture for centuries, im pretty sure if they had been in a different global position as turkey is, they probably wouldnt have been allowed in, just like turkey~

Turkey having a big economy is good because it makes it a better "market" that means you can sell more things. And keep in mind that most of the economy is under the small modern regions in western parts so it means there are few very rich people and lots of poor ones. Again something good for eu because you can sell high profit expensive goods. (although bad for the turkish people)

~ok dont see why you felt the need to repeat yourself AGAIN...~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_number_of_US_dollar_billionaires
if you dont believe me

~Dont worry i believe you, as im 99% sure most of your evidence and claims has come from trolling Wikipedia for hours on end, as to not say anything untrue and look like a tool. Oh wait you already did...~

Yes the effects will be less because we are already in customs union. But this also means it will be much easier for turkish economy to adapt single market.

Also think like this

Cost of membership-15(benefit from customs union)=economical loss for EU

Turkey has a lot of young population (dynamic population) while most of the EU members have old people including new members. This means that when turkey becomes a member in 2025 (10 years for membership+5 for immigration rule) immigration might be something beneficial because there will be need for workers.

~But turks dont work... what dont you understand about this concept? your tired of repeating yourself you say, well i never gave u a reason to repeat your bullshit, however ive had to repeat myself many times and am getting tired aswell. Judging from the Turks i have encountered and most people's opinion of them in those effected areas, turks are a waste of space, who wants to allow immigrants into their country when they will just leach benefits, have 7 children and leach even more... rape and mug the home nations peoples, steal, vandalise and make people who live in their own country want to leave. Why do you think 180,000 turkish people were deported from holland in 2008? because your not fucking wanted, and they were all fucking wasters. If you made this comment about something like india i would be all for it, but because your not lucky enough to be indian, this whole notion of turks coming and working in other countries is a fucking joke. I also checked up some numbers to support your claims, and quite frankly you are wrong, yes you have a bigger young population than Germany on its own, or France on its own, or the UK on its own, but thats a no brainer considering your overral population is much higher.

In order of % of the young working force compared to population.

Germany 2.9

France 2.1

UK 2.5

Turkey 1.9

Owned...

I am not saying there will be a net gain for taking Turkey in but what am I trying to say(as I said in my first post) is it won't be different from taking east european countries.

~Thats the point though isnt it, they ARE european countries and have been recognised as that for many many years, turkey has never been considered as part of the EU, atleast not on a serious level, maybe your in the eurovision song contest or something and you guys got your hopes up.~

Here is my opinion on the EU. I don't think Turkey should be a member. EU already has too many members than it can handle. It is not so useful as an organization in political sphere anyway. Because of its current nature there is a need for high level of cooperation and consensus between countries but they all have different interests. Other than that being an EU member would mean having a foreign policy dependent to a bloc which would mean bad relationships with most of Middle east. I personally belive there is more to gain in having good relationships with neigbors. Best scenerio would be Turkey becoming more democratic and ME countries following it without having a "evil western overlords are forcing it so it is something bad". I can talk about it more if there will be a intelligent discussion.

~I feel this whole topic has been an intelligent discussion, atleast from myside... BACK ON TOPIC! Good, we dont want you anyway, hence why you were denied 3 times, lets not get this twisted, turkey wanted to be part of the EU, not the other way around, the only reason you are even being considered is for the prospects of middle eastern relations and military power, which as you can see by the past 3 attempts, wasnt enough to override peoples decision. Please go become an MP in your country and convince them to act as you see, you will be doing the europe and the rest of the world a favour.

However im not entirely sure you were serious about not wanting to be part of the EU, if you are, and you genuinely do want turkey to stick with its neighbouring countries as its main relations, you have some serious ass kissing and apologising to do to your surrounding countries... i mean come on, which of you neighbouring countries like you? i know the ones that dont... Armenians... Bulgarians... Greeks... Kurds... Russians... Syrians...

Their must really be something wrong when you hated by that many countries from such a large and broad spectrum, you could counter argue that the UK has just as many nations hating on it, but most of ours are all from the middle east... speaks volumes~

I assumed "backstabing" in Afganistan was about sending troops because you haven't said anything what that was about and gave Iraq example with supply so I said Turkey send troops to Afganistan ("even" send troops which is something more than opening supply lines.)

~Exactly, you assumed, which is basically the story of this entire thread and why you are just being perceived as a tool.~

About migration-- I haven't said anything because it was not in your original post. I wrote a text wall about general migration. Which was not my ideas again but the current dominant theories in sociology and psychology. You can read a book about it or find some articles on google scholar if you are lazy. First of all I never said Turkish people hate Turkish immigrants they just find them different from themselves.

~Well we will put it down to a language barrier then, i insulted turkish people and gave you a glimpse of what they are like from my experiences, and then you write a lengthy piece of text which includes the acknowledgement that turkish residing turks know the immigrant turks are different, that to me basically suggests you are acknowlodging they are different from a real turkish person, and that all your nation feels the same way, hence why you have nicknames for them, and obviously because i had just insulted them, when you add that in the mix it seems like you are agreeing. Also the fact that you wrote about some social experiments as if to try and justify why the immigrant turks are a bunch of cunts, thusly defending your country, basically saying "hey we know they are dick heads, but if you check out this experiment you can see that its not their fault" when quite clearly it is their own fault, and as i keep mentioning and bringing up again and again, india and poland have lots of immigrants, and they dont seem to have these social barriers that turks do.~

All it suggests to me, based off how nationalistic every turk i have ever met is, and by the way you and the other turks are acting in this thread, is that the only reason you have these social barriers when it comes to immigrancy is because you are to proud to mix with other races, and through some superiority complex you only stick together when in an alien environment, thusly leading to all the bullshit and attrocities caused.

One of the reasons why indian and polish people are so adaptable and have smoothly transitioned into the UK is because of how modest and humble they are, something i have seen no turk posess, and you are just reinforcing that view with every post.

There is a huge difference. You have a problem with comprehension.

~Sorry to burst your bubble and shootdown your insult, but i have absolutely no problem with comprehension at all, i have acknowledged and shotdown everything you have thrown at me, and i have not missed anything or miscomprehended anything, it is you who cannot comprehend the points i am making, everytime you post i feel like you havent even read my responses, every post is just like your first one, so im sure you are getting tired of repeating yourself, but i have not given you any reason to repeat yourself at all.~

Anyway yes there would be a big migration if there won't be a improvement in current economic conditions. But if we have a single monetary system and single market, there won't be so much to gain by migrating. Sure there will be still more money to gain but that will deter people they don't want to go alien place where nobody speaks their language. Also there will be flow of human capital to EU because educated people won't have hard time adapting and their life standards will increase. This flow would be negative for Turkey. Anyway your examples of polish and indian are not very meaningful. Indians lived under British for almost 4 hundred years; I am sure they know your language and culture more than turks. Polish are less related to your culture but still closer to England. So if algerians or some west africans were less problematic than Turks that would be a better example. Also as I said in economy part it might be beneficial for europe in 10-20 years.

 ~That is a very fair point, yes it is true as you say for indian people to adapt more easily after being colonised by us, however i disagree with poland, as i said earlier they adapt well because they are modest and humble, but there global positioning would not affect their ability to adapt to our culture. But largely i do agree with this comment, we have a large somalian community in london, and they are a fucking pain in the arse, i would be so bold as to say probably worse than the turks i have experienced in germany and holland, however i have not experienced the somalian communities first hand, and i realise this sounds like i have contradicted myself, as i had said in an earlier post britain wouldnt take shit from immigrants, BUT somalians are a bunch of stupid monkeys, and sure they are a pain in the arse and wreak havoc, but the funniest bit about them is, they only wreak havoc on and fight with each other...

Well played Destro I don't believe falling for that. I really thought you were this stupid for a while.

Anyway if you want to look at a Danish source that says similar things to me you can check

http://www.adamhaklibeyler.com

[Fatalbone]

No virus links please.

[Destro]

Judging by your lack of response i am declaring myself the winner of this part of the internetz.

Do you like my crown?

[Destro]

Sorry wrong link

www.dedeler.tk is the correct one for you

Haha, im not stupid enough to click a .tk link, you probably put a nice fat virus in it for me.

[Fatalbone]

Yes you won. But it was so... good. I actually met people who argue like you I really thought it was real.

Now is there anyone who wants to discuss something seriously ?






Link doesn't have a virus in it.

[Yoica]

[Destro]

But the real question is, do you like my crown?

[Fatalbone]

A Dick shooped into your mouth would be cuter but crown is okay too.

[Destro]

A Dick shooped into your mouth would be cuter but crown is okay too.

lolumad