Mafia II - Story of the Iron Edge - Ship Deck

[Archz]

Well the FACTS are that last night one of our were gunned down by a vigilante.

And Kawe pretty much would've had to predicted that the vigilante would use his kill during that night.

[22:59] <kawe> nach, if I was wrong, sorry o/
[22:59] <delling> my favorite app is iNoob
[22:59] <Shiftey> !
[22:59] <kawe> otherwise, die rebel scum

And the vigilante who actually did the killing would've had to remain silent and just watch us trust the wrong guy.

[Yoica]

I have told Kawe the same on IRC. I trust Kawe since it's clear he is an imperial, but he has been talking to a lot of players out of sight from all of us. There are bound to be rebels in there so who is too say he is listening to right ppl? He refuses to clarify anything to me saying he wants to keep his cards close for now. That's his right and I'd probably do the same, but since I don't know the players behind him I've limited what i've told him.

[Tyler]

You cannot hide behind this shit Emptyy. Listing alternatives where you are rebel is pointless as it has been done before. It just looks like you are trying to cause confusion.

I can't defend myself with what I see as viable arguments? Or you think my arguments aren't valid?

I did not see the point of you listing 3 cases where you were a rebel. If you are a rebel we don't really care about your logic, you will just be trying to mislead us. It was pointless, or purposefully confusing, mirroring of Shifteys more interesting post.

I am not so interested in hearing you defend yourself. I am more interested in your ideas as to who is a rebel.

[Starbrow]

Thought 1: How do we know that TTaM did in fact tell his role to all the people who now claim to have know about it? Or rather, Shiftey and Emptyy seems to have known about each other, but none of them about Delling? Isn't that weird?

Thought 2: As far as I can see, it's impossible for there to be three kills in a night unless an imperial vigilante spends his kill. This is because no rebels have the ability to instantly kill an extra person during the night, and they as a whole only have two kills in the night.

With this in mind, and unless Kawe is psychic and the real vigilante is a fucking retard (combined chance of that is zero?), it should mean Kawe is now completely confirmed as an imperial. After thinking this through, I would say that it makes sense that everyone talks to him in private so he can figure some shit out. Kawe should then also recieve protection from the jailor from now on so the trustworthy person can be kept alive as long as possible.

But please think this through yourselves, and if you can see some fault in my logic, then please speak up and refrain from talking to Kawe. However, I wouldn't find it legitimate to not explain why you won't talk to him. You need to have a good reason for why he is not an imperial. Fail to provide this and refuse to talk to him and you're a clear rebel in my book.

Thought 3: I'm unsure about Delling to be fair, but the whole thing is so twisted and it's late (I'm here cause I can't sleep), so overview isn't exactly working well atm. I need some time to ponder Shifteys role in all this. I think he may be a pretty clear lynch if Emptyy blasts Delling, and Delling a lynch if Emptyy blasts Shiftey (though it's a whole new can of worms if the blasted one isn't a rebel). Delling seems to be the logical choice atm, and if he is a rebel, we can use that information to try and deduce his accomplices before lynchtime.

Shifteys way of stating that he's imperial in his scenarios is pretty strange too (making an intentional mistake in the scenario where he is the rebel and Emptyy isn't). Vote staying on Delling for now.

So in short: Speak to Kawe, or speak up about why not. Other shit is more speculative. Needs more info...

[Starbrow]

Also, updated vote chart. It's late so there may be errors, but I think I caught all of it. I checked them twice at least. Would the following people start speaking up votewise or explain why they haven't voted:

Archz, Blackwhale, Graxlos, Grishnag, Kendoki, Shankski, Sintrael, Tronz and Vdti.

I assume Kawe is holding off while waiting for information.

[Veilas]

The mafia wants to save one shot abilities for the end so they can win by using them meaning the longer you hesitate Emptyy the more suspicious of you i'm getting !
Also this sudden reveal from Dells site seems like attempt of sacrifice for Emptyy!
Since Dell already got a pretty big deal of votes you have my vote on the Insta kill on Dell so we can move on.

[Yoica]

But please think this through yourselves, and if you can see some fault in my logic, then please speak up and refrain from talking to Kawe. However, I wouldn't find it legitimate to not explain why you won't talk to him. You need to have a good reason for why he is not an imperial. Fail to provide this and refuse to talk to him and you're a clear rebel in my book.

So in short: Speak to Kawe, or speak up about why not. Other shit is more speculative. Needs more info...

Flawed logic for 1 big reason. Kawe is talking everyone and it's pretty clear from drop in posst from some people and the increase of posting from Tyler that Tyler is the spokesperson of an inner circle. While I agree that Kawe is most definitely imperial there are people, in what I suspect to be the inner circle, who aren't imperial. So instead of ~14 imperials trying to shift through the info we only have ~4 of which 1 is/might be rebel?

Needs more info...

I couldn't agree more and I think this is the worst turn of events that can happen for the imperial. Silence and confusion...

It's actually the push for the instant kill that has me baffled. Not the target, but the fact that some ppl want it used. We want to use the instant lynch when we have a 2nd likely target. Now all that will happen is that we kill Delling and then what? Maybe vote an imperial? We just ourselves more than rebels since they aren't going to burn their fingers on Delling anymore.

Tyler and now Veilas have said hang Delling and now on. I say keep your votes on Delling and ignore for him. Go look at others 1st and when we get a good 2nd target that is when we use the instant lynch either on delling or the new target. Using it now is pointless. We better be pretty sure we pick a good target, because killing Delling and an imperial is probably more of loss of us than the rebels.

[kawe]

Don't be vague, Yoica; replace 'some people' with names.

As an aside, you've voiced that you're concerned that I'm leaking information to the wrong people, and also that you're concerned with my keeping my information close to my chest. Which is it gonna be? In addition, by publicly saying that you've limited what you've told me marks you out as an appealing target for the mafia without providing me with anything one way or the other.

Shankski:

1 word..... FUCK

So you're aware of what's happened and my blunder

Yes we have been royally fucked by this however its not a game loser yet. Personally I think we need some clever use of the jailor to help turn this game around.

Obviously the jailor coming forward is a bad idea. But I was thinking we could have some unofficial vote or something about who we think should be jailed, and the jailor can safely lock them up without their identity being revealed. If the jailor doesn't agree with the vote by all means he/she could lock up whoever he/she wants.

Appart from that the other only really useful Blue we have left is the Imperial Assassin.  This target will need to be chosen carefully since we don't have any solid info coming in cause they are all dead.

Hug if you have any idea who could be Rebel use your blame ability before its too late.

This post contains a few things of note.
1- You want the Jailor's choice to be influenced - undeniably to some extent by mafia - but in a way where nobody looks guilty. The only ones who would benefit from knowing a likely possible Jailor target would be mafia.
2- You speak of the imperial assassin role. The fact it is on your mind is important; see after next quote.
3- You think Hug would wait until after it's too late to use his blame ability? E.g. when he's already dead?

i dont really wanna tell you my role when i do not trust you.  i dont remember seeing any proof you are a blue other than you claming it. might have missed it tho!

Exactly the same

So you're saying that I have claimed, with no backing, 'a blue role'. Yet you showed in your reaction to the three night deaths you were aware of that; and you showed your awareness of the Imperial Assassin's role in your considerations in your second post I've listed; but you happily hop on someone else's reasoning, reasoning that ignores all of this, to explain why you won't trust me or give me any info.

Most curious.

[shankski]

1st quote I was just shocked about how carnage that night was for us.

The 2nd quote was highlighting that due to the current situation we are in, I can only see a winning outcome from using the jailor well. Obviously we don't want the jailor coming forward as the slightest inkling could get him killed by the mafia. I was purely suggesting a means where the jailor could find out who to jail, due to the fact the cop and tracker are dead we have no investigative information coming in. Of course this method would be susceptible to Rebel influence but to be honest I don't really see another way.

With regards to the assassin I was looking through the roles to see what blues we actually had left.

Someone obviously did mess up with their kill. However, theres a possibility that it is not you. This wouldn't be the first time you would of lied about having a blue role. Yes I did see the IRC log, but if you were Rebel you would be aware of the targets to be killed that night. Maybe Nach was already going to be killed and you just put his name in their to seem like you did a vig kill.

I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just saying it is a possibility that I have kept in mind and is why I don't trust you enough to tell you my role. To be honest there are very few people I trust in this game at the moment.

[Starbrow]

Someone obviously did mess up with their kill. However, theres a possibility that it is not you. This wouldn't be the first time you would of lied about having a blue role. Yes I did see the IRC log, but if you were Rebel you would be aware of the targets to be killed that night. Maybe Nach was already going to be killed and you just put his name in their to seem like you did a vig kill.

I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just saying it is a possibility that I have kept in mind and is why I don't trust you enough to tell you my role. To be honest there are very few people I trust in this game at the moment.

The only problem here is that it makes no sense for a vigilante to not come forward after using his ability. And noone other than Kawe has. Even if a second vigilante was claimed, I'd still go with Kawe because of the IRC logs. Even so, if someone came forward claiming vigilante, there's a clear 50/50 lynch between a rebel and an imperial, which could be resolved using Emptyy, giving us information.

The telling thing for me is that noone other than Kawe has stepped forward.

[kawe]

You do understand that the alternative scenario is that I'm a rebel who knew the vigilante would hit, and who, and when, and for certain, and claimed it before the post, and the vigilante has said nothing, and that they've not mentioned anything about it in any way?

What vigilante would sit by as someone else claimed their kill and from it the trust of the town, knowing that that person didn't commit that action, and is therefore lying? I'm thankful that no mafia had the quick wits, or balls, to make a rapid counter claim, as a real vig with a kill claim stolen from them absolutely would have made one quickly to stop any shenanigans.

You didn't consider any of this, nor Starbrow's post on the subject?

At the same time, you have not put forward anything new or the opinions (that you said you would).

Sorry about not posting much, been a lovely day today not paid much attention to the thread tbh. Will read up on the pages I've missed and give my opinion a bit later.

[Kendoki]

I havent voted yet, because the only reason i see to vote for Delling at this points is for the following reason :

Tyler - I wasn't keen on voting in the first place (as you say), and I was more convinced with Daekesh's analysis of Kawe, than Kawe's analysis of Archz. So I went with Kawe.

I don't think either of them are rebels (or Kawe is a rebel and has massively overplayed his hand, buoyed up with hubris from last game) -- but as you guys say, voting is better than not-voting.

If I had to cast my own independent vote, I would vote for Ino, Tronz or Intrinsic, because they've been almost completely useless.

This is a very defensive post. Why would you not vote for one of the guys you listed if you think they are useless? Why vote Kawe if you think he is not a rebel? It looks to me like you are keeping a low profile, trying not to stick out too much.

##Unvote: Archz
##Vote: Delling

He serious contradicts himself here. I agree here totally with Tyler, why vote for Kawe, when you say yerself : "If I had to cast my own independent vote, I would vote for Ino, Tronz or Intrinsic." Seems steered in my eyes. This is the only reason as of yet i would vote for Delling.

All the other reason like too many posts and too many noobiness or starting the bandwagon are too weak of arguments to give him my vote for him now.
 
I am also curious as to where certain people went, Chippen only posted voted a vote for Delling, no reason given, Blackwhale is dead silent, and so are many more people. I need to see some posts from them. Untill i see some posts from them, my vote is still my own.

[Vdti]

I've been away for a day now, so I had to use so time to catch up, this thread is really growing fast.

Here are some takes on some of the people.

Kawe: Definitely imperial. The evidence has already been presented, no reason to repeat this. However, I would like to add that everyone who do not want to talk to him in private should be our targets. The only people who would not want to reveal their role to a known imperial, are mafia. I suggest everyone to talk to him in private on IRC or through forum PMs.

Delling: He seems to have hidden quite a few secrets and is somewhat inconsistent in the TTaM/Shiftey/Emptyy think, but he comes forward as a martyr and as nobody else have, he probably telling the truth. This could best be confirmed by Kawe after he's talked to everyone.

Yoica: Seems somewhat unwilling to talk to kawe, but I don't think he's a rebel. He did defend TTaM during day 1. I haven't checked if this was after or before he had the most votes for a while, so I'm not going 100% on this one. Yoica: Talk to kawe to clear things up.

shankski: He really don't want to talk to kawe, claiming he doesn't trust him, even after all the evidence has been presented. Number one lynch target in my book.

Other:
Kawe already listed a list of people who he wanted to talk to and as long as they do not talk to him, they are all acting suspicious. I just talked to Kawe on IRC, and he can confirm this, and I really suggest everyone to do the same.

As for why I haven't voted yet, I've already explained that I had to catch up. I'm going to give my vote for shankski for the reasons I've explained, but I'm willing to follow Kawe's vote as he is definitely the one with the most information.

##Vote: shankski

[Archz]

Do the Wookie keep people from posting, as well as voting? The vigilante could've told the wrong person (maybe even Kawe influenced him to kill Nach), sent the wookie on him and now he knows all our roles ^^

[Shiftey]

Yoica: Seems somewhat unwilling to talk to kawe, but I don't think he's a rebel. He did defend TTaM during day 1. I haven't checked if this was after or before he had the most votes for a while, so I'm not going 100% on this one. Yoica: Talk to kawe to clear things up.

Except Yoica voted for TTaM until the very end and argued for him a bit. I do not think he did defend him at all.